Massie wrote Reid is as absent of courage as he is filled with racial bigotry It looks like Massie is as absent of objectivity in matters of other people's faith as he is filled with religious bigotry. (He completely ignored the current position and teachings of the Church.)
I imagine objectivity can be really difficult for a race that has been so down-trodden over the years. His opinion is very one-sided, but I don't think unusual in the face of bigotry.
The quotes he used made me cringe, and a little ashamed of that part of our history - but John you're right - we don't practice it now, and that wasn't pointed out. I do think however that it's still a problematic issue for many still today. I can't imagine how I would feel as a Black member of the church. It's actually something I'd love to ask some of the many African Americans in our ward.
Another problem with Massie's article is that he simply turns to Reid's status as a Mormon to explain his criticism of Clarence Thomas, who is a black Supreme Court Justice. I actually agree that Reid has no basis outside of his leftist political agenda to criticize Thomas's written opinions in Supreme Court cases. I doubt that Reid has even read a Supreme Court decision in which Thomas wrote the opinion of the Court or a dissenting opinion by Thomas. Personally, I find Thomas's opinions well written and very analytical. The problem with them for someone like Reid is what Thomas's opinions are saying at the end of the day, and not that the opinions are incoherent (which is what Reid said about them). I don't believe for a minute that Reid said that of Thomas because of racism. But I also believe that far from being incoherent, Thomas's opinions say something that is politically inimical to Reid's politics (i.e. originalist interpretation of the Constitution, an approach now disfavored in our deconstructionist intellectual milieu, but by no means objectively inferior).
But, if it is simply a matter of disagreeing with the opinions, why does Reid then praise Justice Scalia? If it could be explained merely by ideological differences, wouldn't Scalia have faced the same sort of censure from Reid?
Is it any wonder why many blacks feel there is racism still abundant in the United States when people like Massie perpetuate its existence. In none of the reports I have read about Reid's disagreement with Thomas' decisions did I get even an inkling of racism.
Why is it that Massie cannot accept that a Mormon can disagree with a chief justice not because he is black but because they have different views on issues?
I suppose by actually including any of Reid's actual words in his rant, Massie would not have been able to with his anti-Mormon tirade.
Good question but I am slow to ascribe racism to Reid as the reason, especially racism based on the fact that he is LDS.
Actually, Massie might be more accurate with the secondary theme of his article in which he rails on liberal democrats generally because he views lib dems as being outraged whenever a member of a minority group decides to be conservative. So, under this reasoning, if racism is a factor in Reid's comments, it stems not from his being LDS but rather from his distaste for a black man like Clarence Thomas who is writing opinions against the lib dems pet programs for the minorities. That is racist because it makes Thomas's race a factor in interpreting distastefully his judicial decisions, but it has nothing to do with being LDS, Mr. Massie (you little religious bigot you).
Once again, you can't get away with saying it is just a matter of Reid not liking Thomas's conservative leanings, as Reid gives some praise to Antonin Scalia who, the last I heard, was a bit right of the middle. There is something about the way Thomas writes that irks Reid apparently (yes, I am setting aside Massie's silly racism theory).
Posted byJohn C.
Anonymous said ... (December 19, 2004 6:43 PM)
John, yes, racism is just a completely irrational answer to the question of why Reid criticized Thomas, especially racism attributed to Reid membership in a religious group.
You should know that Scalia and Thomas are not identical in their constitutional interpretation and writing styles. Yes, they share a similar ideology and make use of originalism as a modality of constitutional interpretation, but it might just boil down to the fact that Thomas is even more rigid in his conservatism than Scalia, although both equally enshrine originalism.
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Anonymous said ... (December 16, 2004 10:52 AM)
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Anonymous said ... (December 18, 2004 7:23 PM)
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Anonymous said ... (December 19, 2004 6:43 PM)
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Anonymous said ... (December 22, 2004 5:48 PM)
post a commentIt appears that Massie made liberal use of the material available at realmormonhistory.com/god&skin.htm.
Posted by Justin
Massie wrote Reid is as absent of courage as he is filled with racial bigotry It looks like Massie is as absent of objectivity in matters of other people's faith as he is filled with religious bigotry. (He completely ignored the current position and teachings of the Church.)
Posted by john fowles
He forgot the quote from Brigham young about fence sitters... disavowed by the bretheren.
Posted by Jake
I imagine objectivity can be really difficult for a race that has been so down-trodden over the years. His opinion is very one-sided, but I don't think unusual in the face of bigotry.
The quotes he used made me cringe, and a little ashamed of that part of our history - but John you're right - we don't practice it now, and that wasn't pointed out. I do think however that it's still a problematic issue for many still today. I can't imagine how I would feel as a Black member of the church. It's actually something I'd love to ask some of the many African Americans in our ward.
Posted by Rebecca
Another problem with Massie's article is that he simply turns to Reid's status as a Mormon to explain his criticism of Clarence Thomas, who is a black Supreme Court Justice. I actually agree that Reid has no basis outside of his leftist political agenda to criticize Thomas's written opinions in Supreme Court cases. I doubt that Reid has even read a Supreme Court decision in which Thomas wrote the opinion of the Court or a dissenting opinion by Thomas. Personally, I find Thomas's opinions well written and very analytical. The problem with them for someone like Reid is what Thomas's opinions are saying at the end of the day, and not that the opinions are incoherent (which is what Reid said about them). I don't believe for a minute that Reid said that of Thomas because of racism. But I also believe that far from being incoherent, Thomas's opinions say something that is politically inimical to Reid's politics (i.e. originalist interpretation of the Constitution, an approach now disfavored in our deconstructionist intellectual milieu, but by no means objectively inferior).
Posted by john fowles
But, if it is simply a matter of disagreeing with the opinions, why does Reid then praise Justice Scalia? If it could be explained merely by ideological differences, wouldn't Scalia have faced the same sort of censure from Reid?
Posted by John C.
Is it any wonder why many blacks feel there is racism still abundant in the United States when people like Massie perpetuate its existence. In none of the reports I have read about Reid's disagreement with Thomas' decisions did I get even an inkling of racism.
Why is it that Massie cannot accept that a Mormon can disagree with a chief justice not because he is black but because they have different views on issues?
I suppose by actually including any of Reid's actual words in his rant, Massie would not have been able to with his anti-Mormon tirade.
Posted by Kim Siever
Good question but I am slow to ascribe racism to Reid as the reason, especially racism based on the fact that he is LDS.
Actually, Massie might be more accurate with the secondary theme of his article in which he rails on liberal democrats generally because he views lib dems as being outraged whenever a member of a minority group decides to be conservative. So, under this reasoning, if racism is a factor in Reid's comments, it stems not from his being LDS but rather from his distaste for a black man like Clarence Thomas who is writing opinions against the lib dems pet programs for the minorities. That is racist because it makes Thomas's race a factor in interpreting distastefully his judicial decisions, but it has nothing to do with being LDS, Mr. Massie (you little religious bigot you).
Posted by john fowles
Once again, you can't get away with saying it is just a matter of Reid not liking Thomas's conservative leanings, as Reid gives some praise to Antonin Scalia who, the last I heard, was a bit right of the middle. There is something about the way Thomas writes that irks Reid apparently (yes, I am setting aside Massie's silly racism theory).
Posted by John C.
John, yes, racism is just a completely irrational answer to the question of why Reid criticized Thomas, especially racism attributed to Reid membership in a religious group.
You should know that Scalia and Thomas are not identical in their constitutional interpretation and writing styles. Yes, they share a similar ideology and make use of originalism as a modality of constitutional interpretation, but it might just boil down to the fact that Thomas is even more rigid in his conservatism than Scalia, although both equally enshrine originalism.
Posted by john fowles
really good article.
http://www.geocities.com/solmes.geo/african_american_mormons.html
Posted by Jake